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Subject: "Frozen dermestid,why is it still alive?"     Previous Topic | Next Topic
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Lord Pandarus
Member since Mar-24-07
631 posts		 Sep-23-09, 12:32 PM (PST)
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"Frozen dermestid,why is it still alive?"
 
   ok, I frose a butterfly pinning frame for 36 hours because I was suspicious .

24 hours after I remove the frame from the freezer I find a dermestid crawling in it.

I put it back for about 12 hours,it's still not dead!

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  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
  RE: Frozen dermestid,why is it still alive? veedubman72 Sep-23-09 1
  RE: Frozen dermestid,why is it still alive? Andere Sep-23-09 2
  RE: Frozen dermestid,why is it still alive? Saturniidave Sep-23-09 3
     RE: Frozen dermestid,why is it still alive? Lord Pandarus Sep-23-09 4
         RE: Frozen dermestid,why is it still alive? Lord Pandarus Sep-23-09 5
             RE: Frozen dermestid,why is it still alive? bibitte_insectnet Sep-24-09 6
                 RE: Frozen dermestid,why is it still alive? Saturniidave Sep-25-09 7
                     RE: Frozen dermestid,why is it still alive? bibitte_insectnet Sep-25-09 8
                         RE: Frozen dermestid,why is it still alive? downundermoths Sep-25-09 9
                             RE: Frozen dermestid,why is it still alive? Saturniidave Sep-26-09 10
                                 RE: Frozen dermestid,why is it still alive? daffodildeb Sep-27-09 11
                                     RE: Frozen dermestid,why is it still alive? modestomoths Sep-29-09 12
                                         RE: Frozen dermestid,why is it still alive? Saturniidave Sep-30-09 13
                                             RE: Frozen dermestid,why is it still alive? downundermoths Sep-30-09 14
                                             RE: Frozen dermestid,why is it still alive? Saturniidave Sep-30-09 15
                     RE: Frozen dermestid,why is it still alive? Ffilip Nov-17-09 16
                         RE: Frozen dermestid,why is it still alive? Saturniidave Nov-18-09 17
                             RE: Frozen dermestid,why is it still alive? BobW Nov-18-09 18
                             RE: Frozen dermestid,why is it still alive? Ffilip Nov-18-09 19
                                 RE: Frozen dermestid,why is it still alive? BobW Nov-18-09 20
                                 RE: Frozen dermestid,why is it still alive? Saturniidave Nov-18-09 21
                                     RE: Frozen dermestid,why is it still alive? Lord Pandarus Nov-19-09 22

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veedubman72
Member since Mar-17-06
310 posts		 Sep-23-09, 02:44 PM (PST)
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1. "RE: Frozen dermestid,why is it still alive?"
In response to message #0
 
A little extra pressure between the forefinger and thumb should take care of it

Does the frame have some kind of insulating material like cotton in it?


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Andere
Member since Sep-21-09
10 posts		 Sep-23-09, 03:58 PM (PST)
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2. "RE: Frozen dermestid,why is it still alive?"
In response to message #0
 
   A few sorts of pests, such as bed bugs, wool moths, weevils and dermestidae, evidently, can withstand prolonged freezing and live to reproduce. Many of them also require direct contact with a pesticide to kill them, or being heated above a certain temperature.

After a house-wide infestation of the critters, we found the best method was to remove all food sources- seal up bug drawers, throw out any dried flowers, feathers, open bags of food, etc. Bag furs, wool products, etc. and use liberal amounts of salt and borax in anything too large to be bagged and sealed. After loosing a large bug, feather and pelt collection to them, everything not constantly monitored is kept sealed, salted or frozen solid. Freezing doesn't always kill them, but it does keep new eggs from being laid and existing ones from hatching.

Using fresh red cedar as a box material may or may not be completely effective against them, but I believe moth balls and borax work as repellents against most pests of that sort.


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Saturniidave
Member since Apr-26-07
2115 posts		 Sep-23-09, 04:36 PM (PST)
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3. "RE: Frozen dermestid,why is it still alive?"
In response to message #0
 
   According to the latest information I have the case needs freezing for 72 hours at least, also what temperature do you freeze them to? They should be down to -25 or preferably more.
Dave

"Growing old is compulsory, growing up is optional" Bob Monkhouse


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Lord Pandarus
Member since Mar-24-07
631 posts		 Sep-23-09, 05:27 PM (PST)
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4. "RE: Frozen dermestid,why is it still alive?"
In response to message #3
 
   LAST EDITED ON Sep-23-09 AT 05:29 PM (PST)
 
I don't have a big infestation...I encounter one of these once or twice a year..but it's worrisome that they aren't killed that easily. I *assumed* once the body froze they are dead.

The pinning box was quite thick ,maybe it was too well insulated. I put it in a regular fridge freezer.

I'll increase to 72 hours if it ever happens again

now I put it in a small jar and it's frozen solid...let's see if it survives that


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Lord Pandarus
Member since Mar-24-07
631 posts		 Sep-23-09, 08:47 PM (PST)
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5. "RE: Frozen dermestid,why is it still alive?"
In response to message #4
 
   well that finally killed it


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bibitte_insectnet
Member since Mar-23-04
186 posts		 Sep-24-09, 06:28 PM (PST)
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6. "RE: Frozen dermestid,why is it still alive?"
In response to message #5
 
   Darn b*stard! I say burn its tiny corpse!!!

Jack


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Saturniidave
Member since Apr-26-07
2115 posts		 Sep-25-09, 02:08 PM (PST)
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7. "RE: Frozen dermestid,why is it still alive?"
In response to message #6
 
   Whenever I find one in my collection I impale it on a pin and watch it kick and suffer! I keep it when it is dead and if I find another I watch it eat the dead one, then impale it.
Dave

"Growing old is compulsory, growing up is optional" Bob Monkhouse


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bibitte_insectnet
Member since Mar-23-04
186 posts		 Sep-25-09, 05:01 PM (PST)
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8. "RE: Frozen dermestid,why is it still alive?"
In response to message #7
 
   I can just imagine rows of dermestid heads on rows of #000 pins.

We'll call you Dave "The Impaler", Terror of all Drawers.

Jack


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downundermoths
Member since Apr-30-08
200 posts		 Sep-25-09, 06:45 PM (PST)
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9. "RE: Frozen dermestid,why is it still alive?"
In response to message #8
 
   That last bit is really funny


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Saturniidave
Member since Apr-26-07
2115 posts		 Sep-26-09, 05:44 AM (PST)
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10. "RE: Frozen dermestid,why is it still alive?"
In response to message #9
 
   Well, I have been known............
Dave

"Growing old is compulsory, growing up is optional" Bob Monkhouse


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daffodildeb
Charter Member
418 posts		 Sep-27-09, 09:22 PM (PST)
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11. "RE: Frozen dermestid,why is it still alive?"
In response to message #10
 
You guys are getting a little weird.


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modestomoths
Member since Apr-30-08
86 posts		 Sep-29-09, 08:20 PM (PST)
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12. "RE: Frozen dermestid,why is it still alive?"
In response to message #11
 
   getting? I think the weird is pretty well established around here.

The early bird gets the worm, but the
second mouse gets the cheese.


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Saturniidave
Member since Apr-26-07
2115 posts		 Sep-30-09, 08:14 AM (PST)
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13. "RE: Frozen dermestid,why is it still alive?"
In response to message #12
 
   Yeah, what's wrong with a little wierdness now and again? Or in my case, most of the time.
Dave

"Growing old is compulsory, growing up is optional" Bob Monkhouse


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downundermoths
Member since Apr-30-08
200 posts		 Sep-30-09, 02:56 PM (PST)
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14. "RE: Frozen dermestid,why is it still alive?"
In response to message #13
 
   I'm outta here...don't want to get lumped with a load of wierdos


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Saturniidave
Member since Apr-26-07
2115 posts		 Sep-30-09, 04:36 PM (PST)
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15. "RE: Frozen dermestid,why is it still alive?"
In response to message #14
 
   Too late Barry!

"Growing old is compulsory, growing up is optional" Bob Monkhouse


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Ffilip
Member since Mar-10-06
173 posts		 Nov-17-09, 09:41 AM (PST)
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16. "RE: Frozen dermestid,why is it still alive?"
In response to message #7
 
   Dave, I wouldn't want to be a Dermestid in your collection!
Anyway, it happened to me too...I found them eating a D. satanas female and 2 went out, they got immediately impaled (I use David's method) and the box went in the freezer for 24h...but after a while I saw another one alive! So, they do survive freezing...but the question is for how long? Now I keep all the boxes for at least 4 days, however, I am a little concerned if that won't damage the butterflies, or make them wet and humid after I take them out. I do put the boxes in plastis bags, but the ice and humidity still penetrates inside...
I will buy a deep freezer just for that, it goes to -20C and that should be enough, maybe it would work even for a day of freezing. The one I use now is a normal freezer within the refrigerator...
I do not use any additional insecticide for my collection other than occasional freezing...I just try to make the boxes as much air proof as possible...
F.


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Saturniidave
Member since Apr-26-07
2115 posts		 Nov-18-09, 09:00 AM (PST)
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17. "RE: Frozen dermestid,why is it still alive?"
In response to message #16
 
   Ffilip, the thing to do is get them as cold as possible, I don't think a normal domestic fridge-freezer does this. What you need is preferably a Chest Freezer which can get the temperature right down for a few days. The time recommended in the Natural History Museum publication I read is 72 hours. As to moisture, I have never found this to be a problem as long as you keep them in the plastic bags and slowly bring them up to room temperature. If you do this too quickly there will be condensation.
Dave

"Growing old is compulsory, growing up is optional" Bob Monkhouse


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BobW
Member since Jan-7-04
688 posts		 Nov-18-09, 02:13 PM (PST)
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18. "RE: Frozen dermestid,why is it still alive?"
In response to message #17
 
   I tend to do the same as you Dave and have several pins with up to a dozen Anthrenus larvae skewered on each; it gives me a perverse pleasure seeing them die a slow nasty death after the damage they've caused me.

I recently took delivery of several storeboxes from BMNH which had been in their post freezer for a week and I found two live Anthrenus larvae inside. I now freeze everything that I get AND use copious amounts of PDB in my drawers. Anthrenus beetles seem to be very common here and I've lost too much stuff in the past to take any more chances. I found a half-grown larva half-way up my kitchen wall last night!

Bob


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Ffilip
Member since Mar-10-06
173 posts		 Nov-18-09, 02:56 PM (PST)
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19. "RE: Frozen dermestid,why is it still alive?"
In response to message #17
 
   Hi Dave,
Thanks for the info, I am planning to buy a chest freezer just for the specimens...they should go to -20C, that should be -4F, I guess that is enough.
So you never had problems with moisture and condensation? I am always a little worry that this proccess can curld the wings, or just for the fact that it is a sudden change of temperature...
How do you bring them slowly to room t??? I just take them out of the freezer and let the box a few minutes at room temperature...
All the best
Filip


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BobW
Member since Jan-7-04
688 posts		 Nov-18-09, 03:53 PM (PST)
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20. "RE: Frozen dermestid,why is it still alive?"
In response to message #19
 
   I always give mine a minimum of 3 days at -20 to -25. I don't wrap them in plastic and when I take them out there's usually a little condensation on the outside of the boxes. I usually give them a while to thaw out before opening the box. Sometimes I put specimens in the freezer just on sheets of Plastazote with no protection and although they must get condensation on them I've never had any problems either with discolouration or wing curling.

Bob


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Saturniidave
Member since Apr-26-07
2115 posts		 Nov-18-09, 05:31 PM (PST)
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21. "RE: Frozen dermestid,why is it still alive?"
In response to message #19
 
   When I worked at a local museum we found the best way was to take the boxes out of the freezer and let them stand in a cool room for a few hours until they were thoroughly thawed out and back up to room temperature.Then we would take the plastic wrapping off and put them back in the cabinets.
Dave

"Growing old is compulsory, growing up is optional" Bob Monkhouse


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Lord Pandarus
Member since Mar-24-07
631 posts		 Nov-19-09, 03:14 PM (PST)
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22. "RE: Frozen dermestid,why is it still alive?"
In response to message #21
 
   They seem to die if frozen solid. I wonder if the one that survived was protected by the insulation of the box or I didn't leave it long enough.

In any case it's not a foolproof process to just stick them in the freezer for 24-36 hours .I guess longer is better


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